just because you know. it was getting a long valve it iran and russia and against syria i mean it was receiving all the flags from as especially from washington just because you know it was using its soft power and now after the arab spring you know famous zero problems are a problem neighbors whole scene you know go on and again now turkey is being accused as no. because he's not getting along with you know iran. and syria especially so the bottom line is turkey is not same turkey before two thousand now it is you know different ambitions and a water were eight thousand it's you know better economy. it's been accused is no to mons at any rate whatever it does ok i don't what do you think

about that because you know year and a half ago turkey didn't have very many problems with its neighbors now it has problems with almost everybody now. i think we need to distinguish between two different foreign policy styles one is what has already been going on that turkey is becoming more dynamic and proactive in foreign policy and as an opposition member of parliament i do support the new dynamism and proactive style in turkish foreign policy this however is quite different from what's also going on on the other hand and we can't simply gloss it as an autumn and style of foreign policy and this is a foreign policy that relies heavily on turkey's sunni muslim partners in the greater region moreover she within turkey in

domestic politics there is the self perception that turkey is moving towards in your argument for the sea and you can hear this from many bureaucrats and also opinion leaders in turkey as well close to the government and what the second style of policy has brought us to is. all these emerging problems not only in the immediate neighborhood of turkey but also in the regions beyond because my colleagues in the balkans my colleagues in the caucasus my colleagues in north africa have repeatedly told me in our encounters that no one wants a big brothers in the region and no one wants turkey to be involved in a new york imperial in a condescending style in these regions ok here if you know a more activist foreign policy is risky isn't it. i mean we see that you're learning about also. i think you have to be very careful about what kind of

activist policy this is i would actually take issue with you on this idea that out o. isn't the author if he says he's not in the autumn in a spurt when you look at what he talks about he talks about how everything was going very well up until the first world war he talks about four hundred years of peace and harmony in the middle east he talks about history reasserting its natural course all of these are references to the ottoman past they may be slightly coded references but they are there they have a lesson the problem is that when you then pursue an activist foreign policy based upon supremacism you're going to run into problems i don't think there's any question if you look at the people in the region they're mostly muslims they'd much prefer to have good relations with turkey and to be close to turkey than they would be to be with countries outside doing such as my own britain which has its own. imperial past in a region that had to choose between britain and circular much prefer to have good

relations with turkey but the problem with turkey it's been trying to assert itself and help other people what to do if you talk to the people in the region they want to be partners with turkey they don't want to be subjects they don't want to be subordinates and turkey is activist foreign policy has been based on government telling people what to do we even have one last year went to egypt and told a very conservative society they should be secular like turkey was this isn't a question of partnership this is dictating to other people how they should behave and setting yourself up as a model for others to follow which i think is extraordinary arrogant and also very insulting to the people to whom you're saying it ok if i go back you in washington is but there is a competition for influence here if we can look at syria here in other proxies in the neighborhood getting involved in a turkey just wants to be part of the game be part of the decision making game it's very very dangerous when you're dealing with a civil war like yours but i mean the turks are not alone in wanting to exert influence in the region it's a competition. definitely.

i mean let me take one issue it. mr icon. about the sunni a part of the you know foreign policy that you know. seeing sunni well turkey also. wanted to you know. want to cut out the and mubarak to leave the power leaders you know the these leaders for sunnis. i mean we mostly right now the big problem in the region syria obviously many of the turkish problems for impose problems stem from syria problem and yes there is a competition. you know let's talk about syria it's next door to turkey what or what happens in syria you know impacts turkey and so on many levels

. i mean i think turkey had no other choice but to. certain degree involved with syria. and that's you know what it did i mean you can criticize turkey or you know it if a little if i got it kind of today let's look at syria because you know it before this you know before turkey's stance it could have been a mediator it could have played a very different role but it decided to go against assad so you can what do you think about that because you know the dynamic change there i mean the syrians are not going to look at the turks as being a mediator i still insist that turkey's involvement in the middle east and north africa is one that works through the new conservative partners the case of egypt and the case of libya i think prove my case. since what we see on the

rise in these two countries is muslim brotherhood influence in politics and we also see a similar trend in iraq where turkey is again at odds with the government in syria turkey unfortunately has acted in a very sectarian based and has not been a positive. support for democrats is ation and institution building because i believe we have two alternatives here. syria as the main opposition party we agree with the government that it's a human tragedy and the civilian killings should seize at once and we want democratic nation in syria but where we differ from the turkish government is that we want an all encompassing participatory and transparent process in syria which

includes all stakeholders as legitimate partners in governing a democratic syria hippie government on the contrary when it comes to their stance in syria is not only sectarian but always focuses its influence on narrower segments of society and is leading the syria is leading syria to a majority in the regime where fundamental rights and freedoms will not be secured ok and we're only going to go to the break will quickly tell you no guarantee here don't you think the turks push democracy more than anything else because they actually have done a pretty good job the turks and a good job in pushing democracy yes i mean if this is a model that could be exported ok there's a sense of operative support dorie democracy ok instead of a sectarian oh oh me put it. yeah but turkey at the moment is becoming increasingly more undemocratic and more thorough terry and i mean that if turkey was moving

towards being a more liberal participating probabilistic society then i would agree but when we look at turkey itself we're saying it's increased authoritarianism less and less come up to say also saying the double standard in turkey will go off also back to you for example standard when we come back from the break after a short break we'll continue our discussion stay with our. new deal for all the side. radioactive fallout of all government betrayal the government. everything law and claude

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welcome back across town to mind you we're talking about your views foreign policy ambitions.

ok gareth i'd like to go back to you at the end of the first segment you used the term double standard and on this program when anyone says double standard i go right back to them so go ahead ok what i was trying to say was when you look at turkey's reaction for example the uprisings in bahrain in february two thousand and eleven where you had the uprising by sheer majority against very undemocratic sony ruling elite now that time actually turkey sided with the sony elite and that's a double standard you're now going to try to say that by supporting the opposition to our side you're supporting democracy also you go back a couple of years for turkey support for the regime in sudan in the regime in sudan which was perpetrating a genocide in darfur but i think we see of course turkey is not alone in this other countries have been guilty of double standards but it does raise of a serious questions about the turkish government's motivations if it tries to pretend it's actually supporting democracy and not just people who are with whom it

happens to agree sectarian reasons ok. if i go back to you in washington where is what is the role of islam if there if turkey in indeed is pursuing a new autumn in agenda here which the government as you point out denies but i mean it's the region is so there's so much strife when it comes to sectarian differences in religion can islam be that element to unify people apparently not. i mean before this question which is a great question i'm going to have to agree with jarrett out julie terms of you know of turkish democracy and where it is heading unfortunately you know in terms of standards of the democracy freedom of press you know many other aspects that turkey did you know the role turkey's on fortunately a doesn't seem a good you know having good role and. you know turkey is someone just

told few days ago turkey a can be a great economy model maybe for the middle east but you know for the time being unfortunately turkey is becoming more authoritarian in terms of double standards. again i mean syria is very different case series a neighbor is not bahrain is not sold on it is neighbor and you know it's someone who'd been e to syria three times you've seen this year. chile someone who got arrested by the syrian regime. i was able to. see the damascus suburbs in january how people got sold tired of these regime and you know i am taking issue. on that you know those are

great ideas transparency you know transition to democracy. but there is the you know authority in damascus that you know can accept those ideas you know are oblique try for peace mission. kofi annan try now brahimi try. i mean. from from the beginning the massacres was not interested in that kind of dialogue and you know when i'm going to talk to the syrian people on the ground i talk you know i was again in aleppo and it lived in late august people just don't trust these regime to go on any other path that i mean you know i guess we go to hell i believe there are i can in istanbul i mean what is a positive role that turkey can play now in resolving the situation in syria

because it's already taken a fight. i think turkey is already on the other side of the mirror visibly syria that is i see little chance of turkey playing a positive role in syria because we have already entrenched ourselves within syria through our support for the insurgents logistical support our support our financial support and which means that turkey no longer has the legitimacy to speak to other stakeholders in syria and i do agree that assad's regime cannot continue as it does and i do agree that it was already. voted in the regime and turkish prime minister don befriended him and became best buddies for a while but i still believe that transition to democracy rarely happens through

lots of bloodshed and. civilian fighting and killing and often what we need is a gret gradual transition. often bringing in carrots and sticks from the international community i know assad is difficult to move in the right direction but my take on democrat is ation is that a gradual and incremental move towards. furthering fundamental rights and freedoms particularly with incentives and disincentives from the international society is always a better idea garrity think that the turks have burned their fingers already and syria there's no way out. i think we've got to that point now unfortunately i think there was a an opportunity in the past where turkey could have played a more constructive role and we even saw assad a few weeks days ago saying that his regime was prepared to talk to turkey but that

was rejected out of hand by turkey turkey could also play a role in trying to encourage the opposition to have a more democratic pluralistic agenda and be ready to condemn atrocities which occur in all killings of civilians which are carried out by elements within the opposition i think that would send a very strong signal if it didn't just condemn atrocities committed by one side but condemn them when they were committed by both sides but when you have a situation whereby turkish artillery is now opening up on assad's forces as soon as a shell crosses the border regardless of where it's coming from that doesn't look like a country which is in a position to be an interlocutor ok if i go back to you in washington you think the turks are doing this because they're a member of nato that no matter how far how bad it gets they can always look to their nato friends to bail them out even though the nato nato forces don't look like they are interested in syria at least overtly right now but it's kind of an interesting situation to be in because you can be responsible and i think

personally turkey has been responsible. definitely should be you know one of the reasons turkey is more confident i mean you know turkey has been weak not so more than half a century. you know it has been. you know cold war later on but it comes to you know. benefit from not so i don't know how many times turkey benefits from lots of the you know current situation. will follow on members of the. u.s. and the obama administration's policies i mean you can see you know not to. every other day he you know comes out not you know has no interest whatsoever to intervene in syria every other day i mean i don't. really

organisation i don't see treaty organisation gareth what about this i mean if turkey wants to have greater influence in the region can it stay a member of nato because if it stays a member of nato it looks like it's a kind went of washington absolutely i think this is a major dilemma for turkey went out only he wrote a book in one thousand nine hundred one called civilization transformation and the muslim world which formed the basis of a much more famous book he wrote later ten years later called pretty ticked up and then in his first book he was very explicit turkey needs to be a member of an alternative security architecture architecture which the way put it to nato and i think that there is a very real danger now for turkey that if it continues to have all these problems with different countries and even with egypt relations are that good at the moment it's going to look like a proxy for the west if it remains in nato and yet if it leaves it's also going to leave isolated i think you can even discuss or strategically politically how much

turkey is gain from nato membership in terms of technically most of its equipment comes from the nato countries it's training all of this is done in cooperation with nato so from a technical perspective. it has gained a lot and if you form some kind of alliance with other countries in the region no other country in the region has the technology that could match what you can get from other nato members are going to want to jump in on you know to turkey its future in nato. nato to turkey i think it represents more than simply security page and nato is in fact and encourage together with the council of europe and together with turkey's e.u. membership. turkey in western values but what i really mean by western values is basically human rights fundamental rights and freedoms gender equality secularism and so on and so forth because increasingly turkish citizens

see. the threat posed to a pluralistic democracy in turkey by the rising because medical authority of the on . it because medical authority. neither respects. ok it was a show in germany or here is what do you mean. is turkey going to the east or the west or is it sustain right where it is forty second. i think turkey is leaning towards the east but it may find their speech are still in the west ready gentlemen thank you very much for riveting discussion many thanks to my guests in istanbul and in washington thanks to our viewers for watching us here at the scenic family member.

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if. russia would be soon which brightened the food movie about someone from feinstein freshens. who for instance on t.v. dot com. or indicates a more advanced terrorist attack. ex hostages blunders into their lives after the tragedy. still gives try to cross out the past. because their future will yet be written. sure by being terrorism for ten years on our chief.

the mission and free the couldn't take should be free. for charges free. range meant three. free studio type free. download free blogs just plug in video for your media project a free media dog r.t. dot com you. sometimes see a story and it seems so you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else you hear or see some other part of it and realize that everything you thought you don't know i'm tom harpur welcome to the big picture.

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